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Offline utap

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What does this circuit ID mean
« on: January 21, 2015, 09:53:54 PM »
"If you happen to run across a specific circuit id that has you puzzled please log-on and and start a new topic to ask… There are several members or mods here that can help decode it for ya. "

Thanks for any help.
Here is a circuit ID that I want to understand so I can educate the local verizon techs who never seem to have heard of it.
36CSNA333002CD
If I understand correctly this is the proper designation for a NON dial tone line that is to be used for remote control e.g between
two water pumping stations. I believe it is supposed to be a "dedicated" solid copper from one location to another until it reaches
its destination. The owner can then place a signal(e.g.110VAC) on the line which will, in turn ,activate a relay at the remote location.
I believe it is made up by going from pedestal to pedestal jumping solid copper until it reaches the remote site.
Since there is no dial tone, our past experience with techs is testing the line-finding no dial tone at one of the pedestals, assuming it is a spare and breaking the line to use elsewhere. We have no way of knowing the line has been broken until things stop working.
Any feedback is greatly appreciated-Thank You.

Dennis O'Hara
Control Engineer
www.u-tap.com

Online MacGyver

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Re: What does this circuit ID mean
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2015, 10:50:50 PM »
Hi Dennis:

Welcome to the board.  From the start of your post I'm assuming you have already reviewed this thread:

http://www.myphonetechs.com/index.php?topic=279.0

Bryan hasn't been logged in lately, but hopefully one of the other gurus in this area will be able to help you soon.  Thanks for the post.
-I'm only here because my flux capacitor is broken.

Offline utap

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Re: What does this circuit ID mean
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2015, 11:46:09 PM »
Thanks!. It is good to be here.
For others that have similar questions, here is another link I found that may help others on identifying these type circuits.
Unfortunately, it doesn't address the 36CSNA designation or if my understanding is correct.
http://www.centurylink.com/wholesale/systems/WebHelp/reference/circuit_id_formats_guide.htm#carrierfacility.
I have a lot of control experience under my belt and I can never get over the amount of B.S. I have to shovel
thru to get any educated response form the local tel co. All phone calls go to a answering machine. I even visited a switch network
center. They wouldn't even let me in the building and briefly talked with me thru an intercom. Their advice-call their service number.LOL!

I do have one strong possible alternative called a "wireless relay" that I am looking into. I can then bypass the entire phone company(if it goes far enough).whoopi!

One funny experience, one of the well stations I was working on had a large pole mounted fire alarm horn adjacent to it. I am convinced it was activated by a phone line that was stripped from what we thought was our dedicated phone to a remote well. When we activated that dedicated line to turn on the remote well, the siren would go off???? I wouldn't have believed this stuff until I have actually seen it in the field.

Online CMDL_GUY

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Re: What does this circuit ID mean
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2015, 10:22:51 AM »
It's been a long time since I worked for Bell, but, you should be able to have them put red protectors on the circuit. This tells the tech to NOT TOUCH and call in and verify the circuit.  The techs should know it's a "dry" pair.  Good luck trying to educate them.  Like myself, most techs and engineers who knew what they were doing left after divestiture!  

As far as what the circuit number means, I don't have a clue since it has changed so much over the years.
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." - George Washington

“Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet, that did not commit suicide.”   -John Adams

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Offline utap

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Re: What does this circuit ID mean
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2015, 10:56:23 AM »
Thanks for the tip on "red protectors". Every bit of info helps.
I was hoping someone had access to a published manual that listed all the circuit descriptions
that I can show(e.g politely shove in their face!) what I want, but their appears to be no such manual.
Not tel. related, but I have asked for quotes from suppliers that had no idea what I was talking about. I literally had to
get their specs, scan them into my computer, open them in my graphics software, draw red circles around the item wanted ,save them as
a .jpg file, attach and email them.
Yes, I do miss all the good engineers that cared about the customer and built quality products that would last for years. Hewlett Packard were
good engineers and made quality products at one time! Not so much now.
Thanks again everyone for taking the time to read and respond, it is greatly appreciated. Dennis

Offline CnGracin

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Re: What does this circuit ID mean
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2015, 02:22:36 PM »
Whoa, it HAS been a while.  :022:

CS = CHANNEL SERVICE
NA = nothing (this is a billing a tariff position. In your case "no further parameters.")

This is what can be thought of as a "low-speed data service." Up to 30baud or what you could really call it, a "telegraph line."  :011:

I've seen then used for alarm monitoring, (funny you would mention it) remote siren activation, electric company pilot wire and like your circuit "pump relays."

It can be delivered over straight coppers pairs ("dry pair") or if requiring inter-office transport could be transported over T1 carrier via MCU (metallic channel units.)

Not sure what else you would want to know... It’s been years since I’ve seen one but I think most Telco’s would have this type of service as a tariffed option.
Thanks,
Bryan
Cars -n- Guitars Racin' (Racing retired '07)

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Re: What does this circuit ID mean
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2015, 03:52:22 PM »
Great to see you Bryan.    :003:
-I'm only here because my flux capacitor is broken.

Offline utap

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Re: What does this circuit ID mean
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2015, 04:47:12 PM »
"Not sure what else you would want to know... It’s been years since I’ve seen one but I think most Telco’s would have this type of service as a tariffed option."

Not one more thing my friend! Thank you so much.
 The qualifications of your knowledge is evident in your post. I can use your post to present to  local bell and say this is what I want with "red protectors" installed. Thanks to all on here, they can't push me around with their b.s. denials anymore.
Very,very,very grateful to all
Dennis
p.s. Now, to go shut off that damn fire alarm blaring in my ear.:>)

Online MacGyver

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Re: What does this circuit ID mean
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2015, 06:39:26 PM »
Dennis I had forgotten about the red protectors, but we had a similiar issue at our Dallas office.  The area had exploded in growth and there just weren't enough wire pair to go around.  Installation was told to close all their tickets and if there wasn't a pair available to just steal it from someone else and then let Repair deal with it.  After about the third time this happened to us in as many months after moving in, I had a suit standing out there from One Bell Plaza.  They marked the wire pair and noted it was not be pulled without her authorization.

Good luck to you.
-I'm only here because my flux capacitor is broken.

Online EV607797

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Re: What does this circuit ID mean
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2015, 07:36:57 AM »
I noticed in the OP's original post a reference to sending 110VAC over this dry pair to activate a relay.

NEVER, EVER send 110 volts over a telco grade circuit under any circumstances!  These circuits are designed to work with industry-standard voltages (24-48 volts nominal).  Anything above this creates a serious hazard to telco technicians working on these facilities, risk of fire and not to mention the huge financial liability to the customer if someone gets hurt/killed.

Use this 24/48 volts to run a slave relay that can then switch any voltage you wish.
Ed Vaughn

(540) 623-7100 (V)  (910) 835-3600 (F)
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Offline utap

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Re: What does this circuit ID mean
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2015, 10:20:09 AM »
NEVER, EVER send 110 volts over a telco grade circuit under any circumstances!  These circuits are designed to work with industry-standard voltages (24-48 volts nominal).  Anything above this creates a serious hazard to telco technicians working on these facilities, risk of fire and not to mention the huge financial liability to the customer if someone gets hurt/killed.

Use this 24/48 volts to run a slave relay that can then switch any voltage you wish.

I disagree. these voltages have been used for years and there is tel equipment designed to operate at those voltages.
The tel company sure doesn't hesitate to use these voltages(and expose their techs to it)
Due to long distance voltage drops with any load, I agree with the use of pilot relays anyway.
"When the telephone is NOT in use (on hook) the voltage across the two wires (tip and ring) is about 48 volts D.C.
When the telephone IS in use (off hook) the voltage across the tip and ring wires drops to about 6 volts D.C.
When a ringing signal is being sent there is an A.C. voltage "superimposed" on top of the normal D.C. voltage. This "ringing voltage" is nominally about 90 volts at 20 Hertz (cycles) but could be as high as 130 volts and at different frequencies. "

Offline jknichols

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Re: What does this circuit ID mean
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2015, 01:44:13 PM »
Actually, I'm less worried about the voltage but the current limitations - I can just see someone hooking direct to a 110 v wall plug and trying to draw 5 or 10 amps thru the 24 gauge wire. I'm not sure that would be pretty, and a dead short should blow apart a splice or 2

Online MacGyver

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Re: What does this circuit ID mean
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2015, 02:57:20 PM »
I can just see someone hooking direct to a 110 v wall plug and trying to draw 5 or 10 amps thru the 24 gauge wire.

 :011:

I always did think stupidity should be painful.
-I'm only here because my flux capacitor is broken.

Online CMDL_GUY

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Re: What does this circuit ID mean
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2015, 04:43:58 PM »
I can just see someone hooking direct to a 110 v wall plug and trying to draw 5 or 10 amps thru the 24 gauge wire.

I think this is what Ed is concerned about.   I did see this one time where someone needed a convenience outlet for a wall wart in a telephone closet. The idiot wired the 120VAC side of the wall wart to a pair on the 66 block and ran a power cord from the 66 block, on the next floor, to a wall outlet!  The idiot should have installed the wall wart on the floor with the convenience outlet and ran the 9VAC@ 200ma. side through the 66 block and house cable.

Still not the best way and I wouldn't do it, but......
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." - George Washington

“Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet, that did not commit suicide.”   -John Adams

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Offline utap

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Re: What does this circuit ID mean
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2015, 11:05:16 AM »
Actually, I'm less worried about the voltage but the current limitations - I can just see someone hooking direct to a 110 v wall plug and trying to draw 5 or 10 amps thru the 24 gauge wire. I'm not sure that would be pretty, and a dead short should blow apart a splice or 2

You are exactly correct. The tel equipment is electrically (or electronically)designed to limit current to about 20ma using chokes and or capacitors.  The equipment I use that operates at 110VAC has such limitations built in and a very sensitive relay on the receiving end that triggers upon approx 20ma.

Here is a few interesting posts I came across(things I didn't know).
"In the United States, the telephone company guarantees you no lower current than 20 mA or what is known to your phone company as a "long loop". A "short loop" will draw 50 to 70 mA, and an average loop, about 35 mA. Some countries will consider their maximum loop as low as 12 mA. In practice, United States telephones are usually capable of working at currents as low as 14 mA. "

"1 REN is the amount of AC current  that's used by an old Bell type 2500 set with mechanical bells. The phone company has traditionally supplied about 5 REN from the CO - enough to ring 5 of the old fashioned phones. Since AC ringing current is limited at the CO, if you put 6 REN worth of phones on the line the ringing will either stop on all of the phones, one or more phones will sound very weak, or some phones will ring and some won't.

If you have a meter that will read AC current on a phone line (AC ma), you can use an old 2500 set, which uses 1 REN of current, to measure how much current it takes to ring the bell on that set on your meter. Once you know how many ma of current it takes for 1 REN, you'll be set to figure out how many REN a particular phone takes, or how many REN a phone line provides (before it stops ringing).

Using an analog port on a PBX in our office, we used the Network Meter™ to measure the current it took to ring an old AT&T 2500 set. It took 8.75ma AC. Then we measured the current it took to ring a Chinese phone we sell. It measured 8.26ma AC, but the phone said 1.4 REN on the label (if it was really 1.4 REN, it should have read 12.25ma AC). I guess I'll believe the meter, and figure that each of these phones is really a little less than 1 REN."

Also,anyone who applies ac wall power(unlimited source of energy with no such current restrictions) to a tel circuit gets just what they deserve.