Here's one for you: TVA50/TA824 and CPC

[Robc]

It's been a while! 

Does anyone know how well the TVA and 824 combo work when CPC is issued from a caller.
I definately have a decent CPC disconnect coming from my telco. A caller disconnecting takes a couple of seconds to clear a line non the 824

I DIL to the TVA for all incoming calls. A company greeting is played, then the call routes to the extensions. MOH is played.
If a caller disconnects as soon as the TVA picks up, the phantom call still goes through the motions and the TVA calls extensions.
The 824 has cleared down the call. The line is no longer in use.
My question is, how well do these two behave talking using APT integration?
Is this a fixable thing?

Cheers.

[MrGemini]

Rob, those two work well using APITS integration.
What is your question or problem? 
Is it not disconnecting on a hang up?
You made need to adjust field 420, CPC signal detection, incoming.
-----------------------------------
MrG

[Robc]

Hey MrG, long time no...

Yeah the 824 senses the CPC and clears the line but the TVA continues to run through the custom programming and calls the internal extensions.
Its as though the 824 doesnt notify the TVA of the disconect, or at least if it does, it doesnt do it quickly.
Call display on an extension shows a call coming in from 107 (the TVA) because there is no original CID. When you pickup, you just get a busy tone.
This only happens if an incoming caller disconnects early - i.e. before the call gets to an extension.

Here's my sequence -

Incoming call -> one ring -> company greeting (3 seconds) -> 'Please wait a moment' (TVA voice) -> MOH is heard whilst internal extensions ring

If the caller hangs up during any part of this sequence, the TVA still tries to put the call through only CID shows as 107 and naturally, the caller is not there.

[MrGemini]

In that case, try setting field 421, that's for the TA824 to send a CPC.
It may help.
-------------------------
MrG

[Robc]

I'll give that a try thanks!

[Robc]

Unfortunately the same issue. I was under the assumption this is all controlled via comms using APITS (or APT as the TVA refers to it!)?

I wonder if the CPC generated from my cable modems (I have 2x Arris 2 port) is perhaps not up to spec? hmm...
If CPC is working correctly from the provider, what's a general good CPC clearance time for a line on an 824?
I'm seeing the CO go free after about two to three seconds of hanging up an incoming call.

[MrGemini]

Rob, you adjust the cpc time in field 420. Default is 350 MS.
2 to 3 seconds is a LONG time for CPC
The Most time the 824 will give you is 614 MS.
I'd start looking at the modem.
Also, f you have a POTs line available you can use it for a test.
 connect it to a line port and call in,
I'll bet your problem goes away.
-----------------------------
MrG

[Robc]

The CPC fields are default.
I can hear the click of the CPC when a caller disconnects.
When I refer to the 824 taking a couple of seconds, I mean that you can see a CO light on one of the phones stay lit for a few seconds after. I was asking whether this is normal behaviour for an 824?

[MrGemini]

Yes, it's normal for any system to take a couple of seconds to clear or settle down.
-------------------------------
G

[Robc]

MrG, as always you are a great help. TYVM.

So if everything is working correctly, I assume the 824 passes CPC through or generates a CPC code (or spits out a specific code) through APITS to the TVA to drop the call. This doesn`t appear to be happening.

[MrGemini]

Rob, I'd really like to see you try it with a copper pots line just for a test.
Is this possible?
---------------------
G

[Robc]

Unfortunately the POTS got disconnected when we moved over to cable telco. I`d love to have tried that too.
I have only owned the Panasonic equipment after getting cable telco.

[CWC]

change a no dtmf response to a disconnect in main custom dialing menu

[Robc]

Hi CWC,

I have No DTMF:Exit set. I had a similar idea  
Although I think this only kicks in after the custom service has played three times and there has been no response.

[Robc]

I am going to try another round of calls to my cable co. It's possible a 4 port Arris MTA would fix the issue, I have 2x2 port 602's using 3 lines ( http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r24509289-Phone-Disconnect-Supervision-or-CPC-for-RCN-Arris-Touchstone ). Also a friend has a decent butt set. I am going to borrow it and see if I can detect CPC is being issued properly from my cable modem. I found this info to assist:

1.  If you have a Butt-set with a polarity light that's on all of the time while you're talking or you can hold the polarity test button while listening, you can watch the polarity LED. Make a call to your cell phone, hang-up the cell phone, and watch the polarity LED on your Butt-set. When there's an open loop, there's no voltage, and there's no electricity to light the LED. You can't really time it that way, but at least you'll know if you're getting the CPC, how long it comes after the outside party has hung-up, and roughly how long it is (if you have a good eye).

[CWC]

if you go to www.sandman.com if you browse through the site he tells all you about cpc .....

http://www.sandman.com/cpcbull.html


"CPC is normally sent as an open (0 volts DC), ranging from 250 to 500 milliseconds. When the outside party hangs-up, either on an inbound or outbound call, the phone equipment sees this open on the line and hangs up."
so just putting your digital volt meter across the loop on 100 Volts scale dc you will be able to see the loop open momentarily i8f its happening  !

[Robc]

That very site I got the butt set info from too! 
I have a meter, but it is a crappy one...

[CWC]

lift one of the line cords off of your IAD plug it into a biskit jack pop the cover off to expose G/R/B/Y and your tighten down the red and green screws onto test leads of your mincy meter set on 100 volt dc scale and make a test call if the meter drops back from 40-50vdc momentarily to zero thats is your open loop signal....

[Robc]

Hmm, okay I'll try that thanks for the info!

[CWC]

Just to clarify you will need a T adapter in the mix as well to feed into a single line set or back to TA system but you get the general Idea its to provide test points for you meter but still have the ability to make a call on the line that your metering .The right way is to use a "banjo" inline tester but my suggestion will work as well!!

[Robc]

[edited to add more info]

Okay I had a chance to play around.
CPC is being sent by the cable modems, but quite late at 2-3 seconds after a caller has disconnected. By eye it's around 500ms +/-. CPC on the 824 is set at default for the three lines at 350ms so I think that is a good value. The 824 is certainly sensing this and closing the line pretty quickly after the signal. I did try tweaking it down by 100ms but I still have the same original issue.- The TVA continues to go through the motions of routing the dead call to an extension and will continue to ring the extension until time-out (25 seconds).

Just for kicks testing a proper POTS line, at a business next door, CPC is sent immediately, but I now don't think the delayed CPC from my cable modems is the issue.

Can MrG or CWC clarify how the CPC signal is sent from the 824 through APITS to the TVA? Is it simply the same loop disconnect passed through (just as the call is in DIL mode? or is this a new CPC generated by the 824 or perhaps the 824 just sends some wierd DTMF signal?

-Knowing this info would possibly help me.

[Robc]

Did a trace on the TVA (I have XXX'ed out the CID). I dropped the incoming call when the main company greeting played. Two seconds later the 824 released the CO, but the TVA carried on doing it's thang!;

                            String
01    MAY-22-11  05:18:29PM [00] Incoming Class:0x02

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:29PM [00] TrunkNo:0

                            Caller ID No                       Caller ID Name
01    MAY-22-11  05:18:29PM XXXXXXXXXX            XXX MB          
                            String
01    MAY-22-11  05:18:29PM [00] RECIEVED CALLER ID.

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:29PM [00] No DID.

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:29PM [00] [110522171829] - apl_start Ver.3.01 -

      V.P.S. Applic
01    MAY-22-11  05:18:29PM [00] Set Primary Language( Language 1 ).

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:29PM [00] ***** IFRM Information  - Start - *****

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:29PM [00] Incoming Class:0x02

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:29PM [00]  -> DIRECT(OUTSIDE)

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:29PM [00] TrunkNo:0x0

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:29PM [00] byRoutDt:0xff

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:29PM [00] Caller Ext:0xffffffff

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:29PM [00] Forwarded Ext:0xffffffff

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:29PM [00] byDnMode:0xff

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:29PM [00] ***** IFRM Information  - End   - *****

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:29PM [00] CID Received

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:30PM [00] *** chk-xfer() lRetInf:0x00000001

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:30PM [00] GD_call - 1 alloc memory

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:30PM [00] GD_call - 2 make GUID

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:30PM [00] GD_call - 3 convert GUID

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:30PM [00] GD_call - 4 play GUID

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:35PM [00] Set Primary Language( Language 1 ).

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:35PM [00] <! --- Custom Service --- !>

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:35PM [00] ***** Custom No.8. *****

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:35PM [00] -- Day Control --

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:35PM [00] Subscriber Ext.

                            Guidance Value
01    MAY-22-11  05:18:35PM (0548)Please wait a moment
                            DTMF/Dial Value
01    MAY-22-11  05:18:36PM Output DTMF: F
01    MAY-22-11  05:18:36PM Output DTMF: 1
01    MAY-22-11  05:18:36PM Output DTMF: 0
01    MAY-22-11  05:18:36PM Output DTMF: 0
                            String
01    MAY-22-11  05:18:36PM [00] waiting CPR response. [wait time = 61700]

01    MAY-22-11  05:18:37PM [00] Call Transfer No Answer Time:25

                            DTMF/Dial Value
01    MAY-22-11  05:19:02PM Output DTMF: F
                            String
01    MAY-22-11  05:19:02PM [00] waiting CPR response. [wait time = 61100]

                            Guidance Value
01    MAY-22-11  05:19:02PM (0636)Sorry, no one is available to answer the call
                            String
01    MAY-22-11  05:19:05PM [00] Option Jump -> Transfer to Custom(11)

01    MAY-22-11  05:19:05PM [00] ***** Custom No.11. *****

01    MAY-22-11  05:19:05PM [00] Set Primary Language( Language 1 ).

01    MAY-22-11  05:19:05PM [00]  -- Menu & Transfer --

01    MAY-22-11  05:19:05PM [00]  $$$$$ Play Custom Menu(No.11[1-100]) --- Start --- $$
01    MAY-22-11  05:19:13PM [00]  $$$$$ Play Custom Menu(No.11[1-100]) --- End   --- $$
01    MAY-22-11  05:19:19PM [00]  $$$$$ Play Custom Menu(No.11[1-100]) --- Start --- $$
01    MAY-22-11  05:19:26PM [00]  $$$$$ Play Custom Menu(No.11[1-100]) --- End   --- $$
01    MAY-22-11  05:19:32PM [00]  $$$$$ Play Custom Menu(No.11[1-100]) --- Start --- $$
01    MAY-22-11  05:19:40PM [00]  $$$$$ Play Custom Menu(No.11[1-100]) --- End   --- $$
01    MAY-22-11  05:19:46PM [00]  - End Call.

01    MAY-22-11  05:19:46PM [00]  - Blind Transfer Flag(byAtTransfer):(0)

01    MAY-22-11  05:19:46PM [00] Return from Option Jump(Transfer to Custom)

01    MAY-22-11  05:19:46PM [00] Thank you

                            Guidance Value
01    MAY-22-11  05:19:46PM (0679)Thank you for calling

[Robc]

More jollity;

I un-DIL'ed incomming calls. Called in and our main extension rings. Dropped the incoming call, and two seconds later the 824 sensed CPC and dropped the call, extension stops ringing. CO is free. I have never had an issue with CO's becoming stuck.
It appears the 824 is doing it's duty.

[MrGemini]

At this point all I can recommend is to default the TVA and rebuild it.
------------------------------
G

[Robc]

Oh wow, I was hoping you wern't going to say that!

Are you basically saying the 824 paired with the 50 'should' talk nice and a dropped CO call with CPC working correctly, 'should' clear on the TVA?

[MrGemini]

What I'm saying is I've never had that problem.
I suppose it is possible for some parameter in the TVA to have gotten screwed up but rather
then go on a wild goose chase you would be better off just defaulting it and starting from scratch.
------------------------------
G
Added: You may want to look at the disconnect parameters in the TVA.
From the main menu, 2.5.4.11
Also, there is a CPC setting in the TVA under hardware settings, 2.6 but it shouldn't
have any bearing if you are integrated through APITS.

[Robc]

Your assistance always appreciated MrG.


I shall back everything up, then try defaulting (three times with the dip switches just to make sure) and recreating a simple config.
If that doesn't fix things I'm also going to try a vanilla 824 config.

All the values you say to check in your last post are default. I have been very careful not to tweak anything unless it is required.

-I did initially setup the TVA when it was a 2 port. I used the autoconfig feature where it talks to the 824 to get it's extension info.
-Some time later I added a TVA-502 to the TVA, but I found no instruction that stated I had to re-run autoconfig.
I'm running 4 ports on jacks 07/08, 15/16.

If I was to offer some form of paymant (paypal?), are you able to ask Panasonic support direct my issue? I don't have a dealer over here. I live in Canada and have built this system myself.

[Robc]

Actually I have a thought - Does tip and ring polarity between the APITs cables matter? I have used regular 4 core extension wires.
If CPC is passed through, and it's a reversal of polarity, I wonder if this is a factor?

[CWC]

Actually I have a thought - Does tip and ring polarity between the APITs cables matter? I have used regular 4 core extension wires.
If CPC is passed through, and it's a reversal of polarity, I wonder if this is a factor?

No !Its not a reversal at all its an open on the loop remember? .If you have standard line cords jumping from the ksu to the voicemail thats fine!

[Robc]

Well, I'm still no-where. I defaulted both the TVA and the 824, built a quick config DIL to 107, Used the wizard to setup comms between both, and created one custom service.
An incoming dropped call still routes through the TVA.
I have not changed any variables, other then those required to set things up.

I'm about ready to throw in the towel. If this is simply 'by design' or a bug, then so be it. It would be nice to know for sure.
Is there any way I can contact a willing dealer to ask Panasonic on my behalf? I'm willing to pay for this.

Thanks again for all your help MrG and CWC. Appreciated.

[CWC]

what exactly is in your main custom dialing menu . I don't get how the tva is ringing
"extensions"  with out a dtmf touch or is this abandoned call hung for the default 3 times repeat and then is being sent to the rotary or no dtmf location?

[Robc]

Hi CWC  

Day, night and lunch on the 824 are DIL'ed to 107.
Day custom service on the TVA is Day Control, and all 7 days are transfer to extension 100 (this is a custom service that requires no input from the caller).
This method was chosen for two reasons - I can extend the no answer time limit from the measly 20 seconds max the 824 gives you, and we prefer the Company greeting, followed by 'Please wait a moment', then MOH whilst our extensions ring.

On the 824 I know I could take the DIL off for day mode and route directly to the extension (in fact this is how it used to be configured), but we much prefer this way.

[CWC]

Ah Ha ! Its that date control oddity you have  were all calls transfer to ext 100 thats hanging calls on the tva! If you had used a disa OGM to answer the call first to slow call flow down and handed off to ext 100 it may solve your issue!!
 Hi OBT!!

[Robc]

Oh...

So what you are saying, is even though it is possible to setup the TVA this way, I am losing CPC with this method? The call is still in the TVA's hands, as a busy gives the caller the option to hold or leave a message. It seems totally logical to me to be able to do this...

I'm not OBT by the way  

[CWC]

I know who you are!! OBT is lurking in the shadows!!!

as I said way back you bougt the wrong system for a hotel!!

[Robc]

I would be on the 'other' forum if I was OBT... Isn't he from the UK anyways?

Anyway, aside from this minor annoyance, we have everything working great.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/542/79570573.jpg/

[CWC]

set up a disa AA for ext 100 and watch your hung calls go bye bye!

[Robc]

Then I go back to a 20 second N/A which we don't want.
Thanks for the info though, I shall look into it, and have a play.

[CWC]

disa picks up straight away ??

[Robc]

Right, DISA would play a greeting then spit the call to an extension (or group). Then we are back to the 824's 20 second max busy/no answer. I've considered a circular hunt group, but it wouldn't work for us.-
We have 6 DECT handsets on one base unit on extension 100. Our property is quite large split into 5 buildings and this works for us to carry a phone around with some others strategically placed.

[CWC]

Right, DISA would play a greeting then spit the call to an extension (or group). Then we are back to the 824's 20 second max busy/no answer. I've considered a circular hunt group, but it wouldn't work for us.-
We have 6 DECT handsets on one base unit on extension 100. Our property is quite large split into 5 buildings and this works for us to carry a phone around with some others strategically placed.

look at the software once disa is a hold of the call you have huge timers you are not on ta system timers at all !

[Robc]

Wow, really? Okay, that's something I will read up on. Thanks!
I did read somewhere some time ago it was not good practice to use both DISA and a VPS together. Is that not the case?
If I can blend them, then I'm all in.

[CWC]

its bad practice if you don't know what you are doing!

put it this way how would you get higher end systems to do acd call queue ,atomatic wakeup call
and still have huge voicemail storgage capability????disa ogms and voicemail

[Robc]

Hehe... Our wakeup call service, is, guests let us know if they want one and I login to the maintenance console  

[Robc]

By the way, the 824 and TVA combo was recommended to me by a 'Panasonic Dealer' for our business. I shall not name him.

[CWC]

By the way, the 824 and TVA combo was recommended to me by a 'Panasonic Dealer' for our business. I shall not name him.

Makes your "dealer" about as sharp as a bowling ball!

[Robc]

Yes no comment. Been reading up on DISA. Is there any way to trf to an extension without caller one touch DTMF input? I'd like a greeting then xfer automatically but don't think it's possible.

[CWC]

Don't quote me but i think a disa no dtmf touch will transfer you zero providing you have disa no dial set at intercept, is 100 the operator on your system?
set  up disa ogm  point a line at disa make a test call let it time out let us know whae happens.......!

 Shawn

[Robc]

Yes it is! Port 01 goes to our 6 DECTs and is set as operator . I had a Hunch operator had other whizbang stuff going on in the background. thanks again I shall play with the configuration. If it doesn't work I may as well set the TVA primary custom greeting to one that involves DTMF input. It seems like exactly the same thing as DISA on the 824 regarding CPC. It also has extra features.

[CWC]

Oh joy you own the only TA product that panasonic will support now